Showing posts with label prank. Show all posts
Showing posts with label prank. Show all posts

Tuesday, December 4, 2007

Lori Drew, Megan Meier: "Megan Had it Coming" Blogger Vs. Readers, Part III



Part III on the continuing debate that broke out on the blog "Megan Had it Coming" between the blog's author--who first claimed to be "Kristen" and then yesterday published a post "I'm Lori Drew"--and readers who read and commented.

Is it really Drew? We don't know yet. We're still trying to find out though.

In the meantime, read and then decide.

--BREAKING: Drew's Lawyer: Drew Knew, Didn't Stop It-Video Report

Anonymous said...

You are absolutely unbelievable. An absolute piece of work. I hope you spend the rest of your life alone and destitute.

December 3, 2007 11:29 AM

Anonymous said...

I hope someday you realize that you instigated this situation. Your post did nothing but convince people that you are ruthless and immature. You hurt someone. And she was so hurt that she ended her life. One of my family members committed suicide, and it is something that I will never cope with. It's not a car accident, it's not cancer....someone was so SAD and helpless that they took their own life. You need to realize that you pushed someone that was vulnerable!

December 3, 2007 11:29 AM

Megan Had It Coming said...

Having conversations that were sexual for a 13 year old? How is that monitoring for cyberbulling?

GODDAMN YOU I AM SO SICK OF THIS LIE! I didn't engage in anything sexual. Megan tried to initiate sex talk and I backed away from it. I NEVER ENGAGED IN ANYTHING LIKE THAT. So stop spreading this lie.

December 3, 2007 11:29 AM

Anonymous said...

It's not fair to put that on me. I didn't know Megan would kill herself. No one suspected Megan would kill herself. If you blame me then you have to blame Megan's parents, too. They were closer to Megan. THEY WERE HER PARENTS. And she still managed to kill herself. What does that say? Does it say they're bad parents, too? No. It says that no one could have predicted Megan's suicide. Not Tina, not Ron, not me.

Lori, a drunken driver does not intentionally set out to kill a carload of prom going teens. He is just driving home. That doesn't make him any less responsible.

December 3, 2007 11:29 AM

Anonymous said...

GODDAMN YOU I AM SO SICK OF THIS LIE! I didn't engage in anything sexual. Megan tried to initiate sex talk and I backed away from it. I NEVER ENGAGED IN ANYTHING LIKE THAT. So stop spreading this lie.

Heavy makeout sessions? Not a lie, honey. You may not want to see it this way...but it doesn't change what it was.

December 3, 2007 11:31 AM

entity said...

Okay--place the suicide completely aside for now.

You baited and misled a depressed 13-year-old for weeks, eventually culminating in an emotional collapse.

Murderer? No, you're a torturer.

December 3, 2007 11:31 AM

Anonymous said...

Fine, you didn't mean to kill her? Do drunk drivers mean to kill people?

It doesn't matter if your malicious intent was to just make her miserable or to push her off the edge, you still did it. Show some regret you heartless woman.

December 3, 2007 11:32 AM

Anonymous said...

You not only victimized a girl who is the same age as your own daughter, you victimized someone who you KNEW was suffering from mental illness. What's wrong with you???? You are a child abuser...I just have to wonder how innocent your daughter really is, was she being bullied by other CHILDREN, was she an innocent victim, or does she take after you? Kids have a way of working out their differences for themselves, it's a part of growing up....are you going to fight all her battles for her, pick her husband for her, sleep with him too? You are a dangerous woman and no child should ever be allowed near you...including your own! The high school called Mrs Drew, they want their robe back..your youth is over, you can't get it back living through your daughter!

December 3, 2007 11:32 AM

Megan Had It Coming said...

One of my family members committed suicide, and it is something that I will never cope with. It's not a car accident, it's not cancer....someone was so SAD and helpless that they took their own life.

I'm very sorry for your loss, but you have to understand that Megan suffered from clinical depression for which she took medication. Her depression wasn't psychological, it was chemical. That means there is truly no way to know WHY she killed herself. Maybe it was the final myspace comments. Maybe it was her own mother ignoring her. Maybe she skipped her medication recently. Maybe that FDA warning that anti-depressants can have suicidal effects on children and teens should have come out a couple of months earlier. You can't place blame on others when someone commits suicide.

December 3, 2007 11:33 AM

Entity said...

Lori, a drunken driver does not intentionally set out to kill a carload of prom going teens. He is just driving home. That doesn't make him any less responsible.

Bingo.

Do you want the world to stop hating you?

Apologize, instead of defending yourself through pointing the blame at a 13-year-old. Apologize to the Meiers. Admit that you were wrong, horribly, terribly wrong, and that had you acted like an adult, none of this would have happened.

That's a start.

December 3, 2007 11:35 AM

Megan Had It Coming said...

You baited and misled a depressed 13-year-old for weeks, eventually culminating in an emotional collapse.

DID YOU NOT READ THE PART WHERE I TRIED TO LET HER DOWN EASY? You don't know it was an emotional collapse. No one can know why Megan killed herself. Maybe it was the myspace comments. Maybe it was the cold reaction from her own parents. Maybe it was her medication. YOU DON'T KNOW SO STOP PUTTING IT ON ME.

December 3, 2007 11:35 AM

Robin said...

Lori, you are delusional. You've spent six weeks trying to come up with a way to justify your sociopathic, vindictive behavior, and this is the best you can do?

Lame. Just plain lame.

It's all lies; delusional lies that you tell yourself so that you can sleep at night. You're mad at the world? Is that what you said? And to retaliate against the world, you right a blog called "Megan Had It Coming" and you call the child a slut?

Lame, lame, lame.

You really are a child predator. They always blame the victim, too. "That two year old SEDUCED ME. I had no choice but to molest her."

Megan was posting annonymous stuff through OTHER PEOPLES blogs? But you JUST KNEW IT WAS HER?? She's a demon seed....she's a slut...she's a BAD GIRL!

You are a deviant.

Have a shitty rest of your life. And your little dog, too.

December 3, 2007 11:35 AM

Anonymous said...

Letting her down easy would have been to just say, sorry, can't be friends anymore, or sorry, I'm moving away, or to just delete the account altogether. Instead, you had to be mean about it.

I don't think you intended to let her down easy at all.

December 3, 2007 11:36 AM

Anonymous said...

You can't be this stupid....really.

December 3, 2007 11:37 AM

Megan Had It Coming said...

a drunken driver does not intentionally set out to kill a carload of prom going teens. He is just driving home. That doesn't make him any less responsible.

This isn't like driving drunk. It's not even close. I worked to PROTECT MY DAUGHTER FROM A CYBER BULLY. There's was no way to know that Megan would kill herself. None. Not even the Meiers could predict or prevent it and they were HER PARENTS.

I'm not a murderer.

December 3, 2007 11:37 AM

Anonymous said...

What could have possibly possessed you to start this blog? I realize that you have serious mental problems, but where is your husband or your lawyer?

Is there no function adult in your life who is there to tell you how entirely ill-advised this blog is?

December 3, 2007 11:37 AM

tina's hot said...

First!

December 3, 2007 11:37 AM

Anonymous said...

I'm very sorry for your loss, but you have to understand that Megan suffered from clinical depression for which she took medication. Her depression wasn't psychological, it was chemical. That means there is truly no way to know WHY she killed herself. Maybe it was the final myspace comments. Maybe it was her own mother ignoring her. Maybe she skipped her medication recently. Maybe that FDA warning that anti-depressants can have suicidal effects on children and teens should have come out a couple of months earlier. You can't place blame on others when someone commits suicide.
You admit you knew she was depressed. How sad for you.

Lori, you aren't helping. Say sorry to them! Say sorry to your family. Say you are sorry to Ashley.

It is wrong, and she is gone. You didn't delete the account after it got sexual. You didn't do it. You didn't walk away. You kept going.

You are modeling this behavior for your very impressionable daughter. Teach her to own up to her mistakes. Be a good mom, and show her how you can take responsibility for her words and deeds. Be a good mom, and show your daughter the right way to do it.

December 3, 2007 11:38 AM




Compiled by Little Baby Ginn
notes: Mondoreb
[Image:i.imdb.com]

Sources:

Comments - Megan Had it Coming - "I'm Lori Drew"
DBKP - Lori Drew or Internet Troll?
DBKP - A Conversation Between Lori Drew and Internet Commenters
DBKP - Lori Drew Author of 'Megan Had it Coming' Blog?

MEGAN MEIER, LORI DREW, MYSPACE SUICIDE LIBRARY:
DBKP MySpace Suicide Library

Death by 1000 Papercuts Front Page.

Thursday, November 29, 2007

Megan Meier MySpace Suicide: 30 Memorable Quotes




30 quotes from the people involved in the Megan Meier MySpace Suicide story and the media.

Megan, the 13-year-old daughter of Ron and Tina Meier, was the victim of harassment by "Josh", a boy she'd met at popular social site, MySpace. Upset at his messages, she hung herself.

"Josh" was later found to be a hoax, the fictional creation of Curt and Lori Drew, neighbors who lived down the street from the Meier's. "Josh" was created to by Lori Drew and her employee to monitor what Megan might be saying about the Drew's daughter after the two girls had a fight.





"Megan Meier is a slut. Megan Meier is fat."
--bulletin posted at MySpace by "Josh"

"Everybody in O'Fallon knows how you are. You are a bad person and everybody hates you. Have a shitty rest of your life. The world would be a better place without you."
--Josh's last message to Megan, according to Ron Meier's best recollection

"They are all being so mean to me."
--Megan Meier, to her mom, on the day of her death

"I grabbed her as she tried to go by," Ron says. "She told me that some kids were saying horrible stuff about her and she didn't understand why."
--Ron Meier right about what happened right before Megan took her life.

"She did sit here in my living room and confess everything to me. She told me that they had pulled an image of a boy off the Internet and that they had created an account using the name of Josh Evans, and she said she knew the last message that left her house that Monday when Megan attempted her life was that, 'The world would be a better place without you".
--an unnamed neighbor about how she learned Lori Drew was behind the hoax

"That is what makes it even more disgusting, that she knew the circumstances around our daughter and still played on it,"
--Ron Meier, Megan's father

“These people were supposed to be our friends.”
--Tina Meier, about their neighbors, the Drews

"Give it a rest. Give it a rest."
--Curt and Lori Drew, reportedly to the Meiers, when confronted by the Meier parents

"You cannot as an adult sit there and do that and hide behind a computer. It is a criminal act. We want to see her go to jail,"
---Tina Meier, Megan's mother, about Lori Drew

"It's time that we do something against this. On all levels, the state
and federal level,"
--Dardenne Prairie Mayor Pam Fogarty, on the need for stricter laws for Internet harassment

"Coincidentally, two months after Megan's suicide, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) reported that antidepressants double the risk of suicidal behavior in young adults. (Psychiatrists have disputed the FDA report.)"
--Jeff , from a post at "Megan's Vigilantes"

"We were concerned about the daughter [of the Drews] and to what extent she was involved and dragged along with this."
--Dave Bundy, editorial director of Lee Enterprises, the newspaper group that includes several papers who broke the Megan Meier story; on why his papers decided not to name the Drews.

"She [Lori Drew] is not being accused in a court of law, she is not being sued and our take is that we don’t run suspects unless charges are filed."
--Steve Pokin, reporter who wrote the original Megan Meier story.

"I posted that — where Curt works. I'm not ashamed to admit that. Why? Because there's never been any sense of remorse or public apology from the Drews, no 'maybe we made a mistake.' "
--Trevor Buckles, 40, a neighbor whose two teenage boys grew up with
Meier.

"We're all in shock. If I have anything to say about it, we'll never have our hands tied legally like this again."
--Mayor Fogerty

"There are enough details for people to find out who it is on their own. They are free to do so. It was a judgment call. I think there were a lot of other issues at stake."
--Pokin, on his critics for his not revealing the Drew's name in his stories.

"We believe that all the publicity about this situation has led to an air of vigilantism. We're concerned people will take things into their own hands."
--Lt. Craig McGuire of the St. Charles County Sheriff's Department

“Give me a break; that’s nothing. But it’s the most we could do. People are saying to me, ‘Let’s go burn down their house.’”
--Mayor Pam Fogarty said of the penalties imposed by the town of Dardenne Prairie, MO on cyber harassment. It's now punishable by up to a $500 fine and 90 days in jail.

"Ms. Drew used the same same exact mode of operation as a child predator enacts in the seduction of a child. Drew posed as a member of the opposite sex and spent weeks and weeks luring this girl into a relationship. But yet it went further. The adult Drew formed a heated relationship with the 13 year old girl. She worked hard to gain the girl's confidence. She exploited the girl intimately by posing as a boyfriend. Do you really thing there was no intimate grooming going on?"
--online comment by DanCnKC

"Oh and I don't think Lori Drew is so evil as everyone says. Megan was a total bitch to everyone around her especially Laura so if I was her mom I would be mad at Megan too and I would check up on her to see what shit she was spreading about my daughter."
--"Kristen", author of "Megan Had it Coming" blog.

"Lori Drew is a psychopath. That part is clear. But more disturbing than that are the actions of authorities: If it had been an adult MALE that "carried on" in a sexually explicit way with a 13 year old girl, even if it WERE for the purposes of revenge for his teen daughter, he'd be locked up as a pedophile."
--online comment by Danny Vice

"Every story has two sides and if you don't think so - then I hope you are never tried and convicted in your own court."
--JennaD, from a comment posted on "Megan Had it Coming" blog

"All we feel is frustration, anger. For months, we've been asking ourselves, 'What mother in her right mind would do this? And why won't the cops do anything to punish them? We just want them gone."
--neighbor Kristie Kriss, of the Drews

"The woman emotionally raped this child. She took her supposed love and sexual stimulation and crushed the girl emotionally with them. This girl was mentally raped [by] a mother and her employee. This adult and her friends played this girl into an emotional high... and then pulled the plug when it would inflict the highest possible damage. It took 4 months of planning."
--online comment by DanCnKC

"So nobody in the news talks about what Megan the bitch was like so now you know. Oh and don't bother trying to figure out who I am. Unlike Megan, I DO have a boyfriend and he knows computers and he totally covered my tracks."
--"Kristen", author of "Megan Had it Coming" blog

"Lori Drew groomed her victim like many child predators do, enticing her with flirtation, mild sexual conversation and playing on Megan's weakness. Lori knew that Megan had a low self esteem and was treated for depression.

Outing Child Predators has been public policy in most states and is usually upheld under the premise that the public has a right to reasonably protect itself from criminal behavior where it exists. Families with children have a right to know when those who might prey upon their child, live nearby. Public policy dictates that if a child is exposed to potential harm from predatory activity, then parents should at least have the opportunity to be aware such harm may exist."
--online comment by Danny Vice

"It's not to say if only Megan (spoke out/did this/did that/reached out), it's to say there has to be more positive and supportive role models out there for our youth.
The parents can only do so much. My solution: it's time to stop the "code of silence." It's time to not be afraid to speak up when something is wrong."
--online comment by Jo

"Megan's story really won't matter; some writers will bend it to fit their preconceived point of view. It'll not be about Megan to them: it'll be about using her as a tool to advance their cause. Laws for regulating the Internet; for stricter controls on what can be said online; to raise money; that any negative reactions are 'vigilantism'; for more money for suicide prevention: take your pick.

They'll all invoke the name and story of Megan Meier. To most of those, she'll cease to be a 13-year-old schoolgirl: she'll be a slogan."
--RE Bierce, commenting the first week of the story on future likely reactions.

“There are no words to explain my rage.”
--Tina Meier

by Mondoreb

Sources:
Parents Want Jail Time for MySpace Hoax Mom - ABC News

New York Times - A Hoax Turned Fatal Draws Anger but No Charges

Missouri Weeklies That Broke 'MySpace Suicide ' Story Still Won't Name Alleged 'Cyberbully'
-Editor & Publisher

Megan's Vigilantes blog

Megan Had it Comingblog

"Frontier Justice in an online World?"- Seattle Times

"Megan Meier MySpace Suicide: Reactions to the Reactions" - Death by 1000 Papercuts blog

Weekly Vice blog

"MySpace Cruel Hoax Leads to Teen's Suicide" - Death by 1000 Papercutsblog


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Death by 1000 Papercuts Front Page.

Wednesday, November 28, 2007

Madeline McCann:
Case Has Had False Leads and Alarms



Was the news in the Madeline McCann case a hoax, cruel trick or the work of an attention-starved news junkie?

Back in June, a letter was sent to a Dutch newspaper; supposedly it contained news of Madeline's death and the whereabouts of her body.

The letter set off a police investigation of the site mentioned in the letter. Police discovered no body at the location.

It started with the following revelation.
IS Madeleine McCann dead? A letter to a Dutch newspaper. And a map showing where her body can be found. It’s credible:

Police in Portugal are investigating an anonymous letter and a map claiming to show where missing four-year-old Madeleine McCann’s body is buried.

The letter, sent to Dutch paper De Telegraaf, identifies an area 15km (9.3 miles) from where Madeleine vanished.
Authorities naturally had to treat the letter as containing genuine information and dispatched police to the site to follow up.
Portuguese police say they have not found anything in a search of scrubland nine miles from where four-year-old Madeleine McCann went missing.

The search was carried out after a Dutch newspaper published details of an anonymous letter it received alleging Madeleine’s body was under rocks.

Officers said the line of inquiry had now been “discarded”.


Why was the letter considered a lead? The British press had plenty of theories on both the letter, its contents and its author.
It strongly resembles another letter sent to the same newspaper last year, accurately pinpointing where two missing Belgian girls were buried.

Ch Insp Olegario de Sousa said officers were “checking the information”.

Next to a cross and two question marks, the sender writes “vermoedelijke vindplaats Madeleine” - this is the place where Madeleine can probably be found.

A murder investigation. And still only one suspect.

One day on and “BURIED UNDER ROCKS,” says the Mirror’s front –page headline.

The paper notes how the handwriting on the letter is the same as that on the paper giving the whereabouts of Stacey Lemmens and her sister Nathalie Mahy who went missing in Belgium last year.

As the Sun reports, the note says Madeleine is buried “north of the road under branches and rocks, around six to seven metres off the road” in an spot near Odiaxere, close to the Algarve resort from where the girl went missing 42 days ago.

The Mail says the author of this letter and, most likely, the one concerning the Belgian sisters, is unknown to police.

A certain Abdullah Ait-Oud, a convicted paedophile, has been charged with their murders. He denies any involvement. Although police believe he acted with an accomplice who has not been traced.

“MADELEINE IS BURIED HERE,” says the Express on its front page. Portuguese police are searching the area…

That letter proved to be a false alarm in the baffling, and still yet-unfolding, story of the disappearance of the little English girl.

The list of hoaxers and false alarms plagued the case. The letter was neither the first, nor the last.
While the McCanns seemed to be getting their message across, the story also attracted hoaxers and fraudsters. One call was received from a man on an unregistered pay-as-you-go phone in Argentina claiming to know the whereabouts of their daughter, but led to nothing, while an anonymous letter and map sent to an Amsterdam-based newspaper claimed Madeleine was buried in scrubland close to the holiday resort. Some 50 officers and police sniffer dogs were sent to search the area but found nothing.

An Italian man and a Portuguese woman were subsequently held on suspicion of trying to extort money from the McCanns, saying they had information on the whereabouts of their daughter. A man in Eindhoven, Holland, was also arrested for attempting to defraud the McCanns by demanding £1.35m in exchange for information on their daughter.

The first signs of a backlash against the McCanns appeared in mid-June. Chief Inspector Sousa said that the fact that so many people had crowded into the room from which Madeleine was taken was making it difficult for the forensic teams to make sense of DNA samples.

At the same time, thousands of yellow ribbons tied to trees and railings in the McCanns' home village were taken down amid concerns they were attracting "grief tourists". Villagers said that Rothley's main square had become a morbid visitor attraction after it was made the focal point for tributes.

Hopes of finding Maddie were once again raised at the beginning of August when a customer at a restaurant in the Flemish town of Tongeren, not far from the Dutch border, said she was "100% sure" she had seen the youngster. The glass from which the child was drinking was removed for DNA testing. It proved to be a false lead.


The case has had its share of false leads and alarms. One lead that seems to be dead now is the theory that the McCanns were responsible for the girl's abduction.

Still another theory, entertained for awhile, that the body of the little girl, discovered in a cooler on a sandbar, near Galveston, TX and named "Baby Grace" might be that of Madeline's. That theory was shelved after the mother last week confessed to beating and torturing 2-year-old Riley Sawyers.

Riley Sawyers was "Baby Grace", not Madeline McCann.

To be the parents of Madeline, kidnapped from her room while on vacation months ago, every bit of news--true or false--causes pulmonary reactions.

Holding their breath, a sigh of relief, an angry hiss, the sharp intake of breath: all were likely to have been the McCann's reactions to various bits of news over this long stretch of waiting and wondering.

The news of the Dutch letter and the subsequent investigation was a false alarm. Both the police and the parents sort through bits of news.

Both have their own questions. Most of the questions are the same.

Who removed her from their room? Where is Madeline now? Where will all lead?

Police and parents alike are still working on the answers.

At this point, all that can be offered to Madeline's long-suffering parents is speculation.

by Mondoreb

Sources:
Police Probing Madeline Letter
Finding Madeleine McCann’s Body - “Vermoedelijke Vindplaats”
Madeleine McCann: No Breaking News; No Body Found
Madeline: The story six months on
Baby Grace, Riley Sawyers: Mother's Grim Tale of Torture and Abuse

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Saturday, November 24, 2007

Megan Meier: One More Prayer for Megan



Tonight's candlelight vigil held for Megan Meier in the town where she died, is to honor her memory after her story became known nationwide.

The vigil's announcement was received by us and was held for a few hours while we tried to authenticate it. It was signed "A message from Tina Meier, Megan's mom". After several hours, we decided to publish it.

The message was as follows:

This is Megan's mom, Tina Meier, and I wanted to update everyone on the details for the candlelight vigil for Saturday, November 24, 2007.

*We are meeting at 6:00 p.m. at the Fort Zumwalt West Middle school parking lot.

*Please bring a candle, cup to hold the candle and something to light the candle. (If you cut a small X in the bottom of the cup, you can slide the candle through it and then you won't have wax dripping on you)

*We will then light the candle's shortly after 6:00 p.m. and start walking from the school down Waterford crystal drive towards Megan's house and end up in front of the Drew's house.

*There is a common ground area across the street and we will have pa system and microphone. if anyone would like to speak, read a poem, etc., they are more than welcome.

*This wonderful idea came from students who wanted to see justice for Megan and for that we are so happy. Nothing we can do will bring Megan back, but we can all learn from Megan and take a part of her with us everyday for the rest of our lives to try to be a better person and think about things we say to people before we say them!

*****Remember this is a peaceful candlelight vigil******
We hope to see everyone there!
The message ends on a hopeful note and there's a wish we'd like to make: that many people will show up to honor Megan.

------------

By now, many are familiar with the story of Megan's bouts of depression, her online harassment--after meeting and later being rejected--by a boy she knew as Josh Evans at Internet social site, MySpace.

Her suicide, the result of vicious comments posted by Josh and his friends, drove her to take her life. The discovery six weeks after her death, by her parents, that Josh was the creation of a neighbor, Lori Drew, shocked readers.

Explored were the reasons and motives of an adult stalking a 13-year-old for six weeks online, the outrage by both the mainstream press, Internet bloggers and the reading public.

Controversy arose concerning the question of whether or not Drew's name should have been released in the original story by Suburban Journals reporter Steve Pokin.

Hours were spent last weekend as editorials squared off in a New Media-Old Media shouting match. In the end, the name of Lori Drew and her accomplice were released online; gathered momentum and finally released in the mainstream press.

------------

This candlelight vigil, announced last night, is the latest chapter in a story which had many sad twists.

The vigil is a fitting way to honor Megan Meier, a girl who never had the chance to realize the fullness of life. It is a much better way to remember her than all of the words flung back and forth during the controversy that swirled around her name.

She died after a hoax, concocted by adults for unfathomable reasons.

The fact that she was a 13-year-old girl may have been obscured for awhile by those who wrote about her; it's doubtful that that fact was ever far from her parents' mind during the last 13 months.

After everything: she was still a 13-year-old girl who liked to chat with boys, worried about her weight and got excited when she got a message online from someone she liked.

She was still the 13-year-old daughter of Ron and Tina Meier.

Hopefully, the vigil will remind people that after the shocking story was told and the reactions died down, that this was still the story of Megan Meier: neighbor, friend, schoolmate, daughter.

Last weekend around the country, whether at home or on the Internet, people gathered to discuss the story they were discovering: the story of Megan Meier.

Tonight, friends and neighbors and perhaps, a few strangers, will gather together for a reflective walk with a candle. They will say a few words; perhaps someone will read a poem, and tears will be shed.

Tonight people who knew her will gather together:

To say one more prayer for Megan Meier.

by Mondoreb


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Saturday, November 17, 2007